Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Zannat Reza: We've all heard people accusing other generations of being the source of society's problems. That they're entitled, or lazy, or they've had an easy ride. And these accusations come from all sides. But we all share this world, so what if solving our problems is more than just about tolerating each other? What if collaboration rather than competition is the key to overcoming today's biggest challenges? So how do we set aside our differences and tap into the hidden opportunity of generations working together?

[00:00:33] I'm Zannat Reza. Welcome to The Future Age Podcast, where we explore bold ideas and creative solutions in reimagining life as we get older. In this episode, we're going to explore the power of different age groups working together to build a better future. It's not just about mentorship or passing the baton. It's about the ways that older and younger adults can benefit by tackling challenges together. From the housing crisis to climate change.

[00:01:02] I spoke to Eunice Lin Nichols, one of the founders of CoGenerate, an organization in the US that's dedicated to finding ways for older and younger people to solve problems together, bridge divides, and co-create the future. I also spoke to Akaya Windwood, a celebrated activist and transformational leader with more awards and accolades that I can mention here.

[00:01:24] She's currently the lead advisor at Third Act, an organization that mobilizes older adults to advocate for a better world. She'll share insights about how generations can push for positive social change together. We'll start with my conversation with Eunice, where I ask her, what are some common misconceptions people have about generations working together?

[00:01:45] Eunice Lin Nichols: Well, I'd say one of the biggest misconceptions that we come across is, uh, when we cast this vision for olders and youngers coming together to make change happen in the community, is I'll have people say, well, but do younger people really want to work with us if I'm talking to an older crowd? Or the opposite will be true, where people who are younger will say, do older people really want anything to do with us?

[00:02:07] We had been saying this for quite a while, and we thought we should just go out and get the data to see if it's true. And so about two years ago, we launched a major research project, a national opinion research project, with the University of Chicago. And we asked over fifteen hundred people of all ages what they thought about this idea of co-generation, of older and younger having a reason to make change happen in society together.

[00:02:32] What was surprising was that while everybody said it was a good thing and that they wanted it, young people, Gen Z, actually reported wanting it at the highest levels. I've talked to so many older adults over the twenty plus years that I've been in this role, are really wanting to connect with young people. It's part of what makes them feel alive. There's a lot of the two-way mentoring and teaching of new language, new ideas that happens. It's really a beautiful thing.

[00:02:59] The other thing that was interesting was when we said, well, if it's such a good idea, everybody wants it, why isn't it happening more? And it turns out that society is really structured in ways that silo us. And so younger and older people don't actually have a lot of practice being in conversation with each other, as they're aware that they're in quite different life stages, have different language, different views sometimes of the world.

[00:03:21] Zannat Reza: So sounds like organizations need to be more intentional about creating spaces for generations to interact, connect, and learn through their differences so together they can make good things happen in their communities.

[00:03:34] Eunice Lin Nichols: I'll say the other one is that sometimes when we use the word intergenerational connection or collaboration, the response we get is, oh, that's so sweet. Or that's so nice. You almost get that sense of like, let me pinch you on the cheeks. It's so, it's so cute. And while I get that, I think that's a big misconception. I think that intergenerational collaboration is both urgent and necessary. Anytime I think you have the intersection of incredible diversity with incredible siloing of that diverse population, there's just potential for a powder keg moment to happen. And we've seen that play out in the media around a lot of narratives of generational warfare and tensions, finger pointing, name calling.

[00:04:15] Our research with University of Chicago shows actually the appetite and desire is completely opposite of the narratives we're hearing. This moment is a time when we actually have equal numbers, when we have this true diversity of ages. This is the moment for intergenerational collaboration to be the centerpiece of how we design, how we operate. If we can do that in the next decade and kind of reset the narratives we have and the ways of being, and give people a chance to practice being together, that's, I think, what will set us up to function in a much more healthy way as a society.

[00:04:47] Zannat Reza: I like what you're saying about we need to break down age silos and create those shared spaces. So how do we do that? How do we foster meaningful connections between people of all ages?

[00:04:58] Eunice Lin Nichols: There are amazing things that can happen out of that connection and collaboration, but it's also messy. Then we have to be comfortable sitting in the messiness of building relationships across difference. We love thinking about how we use three P's, proximity, purpose, and problem solving to help us bridge these generational divides.

[00:05:16] One is in the places where we live, where we work, where we go to school to learn, where we serve. Our society has naturally been designed to keep generations apart. We have younger people at schools, older people in retirement communities. You know, the workplace is actually probably one of the few places where there can be five or six generations working at one time, where we can tap into the natural reality of a multigenerational team. So in the places where older and younger are already coming together, how can we actually do more intentional training and coaching around communication and relationship building in places where older and younger exist but are completely siloed programmatically?

[00:05:55] How do we actually design to bring those elements together? I think a lot about our community centers, places where younger and older people both go, but the programming is designed where the older person might have, you know, like an eight AM exercise class. And then young people have a completely different class in a different part of the building. They never meet. It would not take much to actually say how might we, on occasion, experiment with joint programming and see what they could bring to one another. So that's sort of the proximity piece.

[00:06:26] On the purpose, bringing people together is wonderful. Relationship building always needs to be the number one anchor point. But the stickiness of older and younger coming together is really increased when they have a shared sense of purpose. If they have a shared sense of purpose, why they want to be there, and then actually feel like coming together can solve a real shared community problem. We often like to think about how you can stack relationship, add on purpose, and then have people work together for the common good.

[00:06:55] Zannat Reza: So what are some of those real world issues that people from different generations can work on together? Eunice's group asked people that, and one thing that came up from both younger and older people was climate change.

[00:07:07] Eunice Lin Nichols: So this is a natural area where older and younger could become real allies to one another. We love to tell the story of Bill McKibben who launched something called Third Act. It's an organization that's designed to mobilize older adults to be allies to young people in the fight to safeguard our climate. It's built on the idea of bringing older and younger people together around relationship building. And then looking at the unique assets and resources that each generation has, young people are very activated in this space. For them, it is about their, their future and whether or not they'll have one. Older people have access to a lot of the resources, to money, to relationships with policymakers. They have the power in many ways that young people need.

[00:07:51] Zannat Reza: You'll hear more about Third Act later in this episode. Another problem that generations can address together is housing affordability. There are a variety of programs across the country focused on creating co-living situations between younger and older adults. That's win win for everyone. One example is Canada HomeShare, a not for profit that matches post secondary students looking for a place to stay with older homeowners who have a spare room. The students can get cheaper rent, and the homeowners can get a bit of extra cash. The added benefit is reducing social isolation for both of them. There are other similar programs like the Canadian Alliance for Intergenerational Living in the Calgary area and SpacesShared in Ontario.

[00:08:32] Since we're talking about shared spaces, I also wanted to get Eunice's perspective on the workplace. I mean, workplaces are one of those spaces where people of different ages come together every day to work on shared problems. So, how can organizations leverage that to encourage cooperation between age groups? Eunice says it starts with language. That's why she uses the word co-generational instead of intergenerational.

[00:08:57] Eunice Lin Nichols: We wanted a word that was more centered on taking action together. So my first piece of advice would be, to be intentional about how you can center co-generation in your work, in your community, in places where you interact with others. Our workplaces will need to be redesigned. So we have to have strategies to prepare for it.

[00:09:18] I think a good place to start is to think about, many of us have started to lean into the importance of having a really robust diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging initiative in our organizations. Age diversity is often left out of that. The places where we bring people together can be a place to start to combat that. So how can we add multigenerational, intergenerational collaboration into the places where we're really trying to center inclusion, belonging, and diversity?

[00:09:44] Zannat Reza: There's actually a group called the Age-Friendly Institute that's developed certification for organizations that have policies to create a supportive workplace for people over the age of fifty. These organizations can apply to get designated as a Certified Age Friendly Employer, also known as the CAFE program. In Canada, Aging Proactively, an affiliate of the Institute, is working with twenty organizations that are part of the Tourism Industry Association of Nova Scotia.

[00:10:12] As an aside, SE Health is the first healthcare organization in Canada to get the CAFE designation. If you're interested in hearing more about the benefits of age diversity in the workplace, you should check out episode two of this podcast called The Future of Work. Back to Eunice's advice.

[00:10:29] Eunice Lin Nichols: Another piece of advice I would have is, we did a report about a year ago on what young leaders want and don't want from older allies. It was sponsored by in part by AARP. So we sat and listened to a group of young people just talk about the experiences they'd had working with older adults, and what they need in order to be successful in a collaborative, generationally collaborative space.

[00:10:54] One thing that young people said is, relationship has to come first. They are wanting authentic, vulnerable relationships. We started earlier in our conversation talking about climate change. For young people, there's a sense of unknowableness about their future and what it will look like. So there's an urgency to make things happen now. We like to remind baby boomers and many olders that there was a moment when it felt that way for them too.

[00:11:19] It is like the legacy of our civil rights, women's rights, many of these movements felt like there was an urgency of we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but it's so easy to forget that. I was just in a town hall meeting where an older LGBTQ advocate said, sometimes it feels like with young people, we just think, oh, they need to wait their, their time. They need to learn from all the work that's come before. And then he said, and then I reminded myself when I started advocating for LGBTQ rights during the midst of the HIV crisis, he's like, I was twenty-four. And I felt fully ready to lead that because nobody else was leading it.

[00:11:56] This idea that leadership can be co-generational, that older and younger can be a team with equal power. Working from different areas of expertise, but can bring that lived experience to the table, I think is going to be one of the biggest moves that we can make. Proactively tapping young people, not to have a token role on the side on an advisory committee, or just to like be the one person in the room so we can kind of check the box. But to say how might we actually help olders and youngers come together in equal numbers, share in the problem solving. I think if we're able to do that, then you'll have younger people who really start to care about the issues that are impacting older adults and vice versa. And we have a shot at solving some of these things together.

[00:12:41] Zannat Reza: We've been talking about real and tangible ways to bring generations together, which benefits everyone. So what exactly is standing in the way? Eunice has thought a lot about these obstacles and how we can overcome them.

[00:12:53] Eunice Lin Nichols: The work of co-generation falls into three categories, imagination, innovation, and investment in leaders. It points to where we feel there's a deficit, this kind of failure of imagination in society to see a different path other than generations divided or a zero sum game. The way to combat that is to tell new and better stories that are about the fact that people are coming together across these generational divides everywhere. We're not prioritizing those stories. So how might, you know, I think we all have a role in doing that. On the innovation side, that gets at the fact that we are so age segregated.

[00:13:30] I think there's something everybody can do. If you look around and you see somebody of a different generation, we just have to like step across the divide and say, how might I actually say hello? And then offer to do something with that person. Then the last one is really this failure of investment. So few people are actually funding or putting resources towards an intergenerational approach. Our funding streams are also siloed. Funding for young people versus funding for older people without a real view that if we could bring those two together. The Eisner Foundation, which is the only funder in the country focused on intergenerational programming. Uh, Trent Stamp will often say, it's like every dollar spent twice.

[00:14:08] Zannat Reza: When you talk about the power of storytelling, are there specific stories that stand out for you?

[00:14:14] Eunice Lin Nichols: At the heart of the pandemic, there was an op-ed that came out calling young people to step up and help support getting people educated about the getting the COVID vaccine shot. We ended up writing an op-ed that said this is a great call to action, but let's not forget about all of these retired medical professionals who could be called back into service to collaborate with young people, to help safeguard our nation during this critical time, and tap into the experience of people who actually are skilled and have been trained in how to give shots.

[00:14:44] Right now, we are experiencing that around voter registration as we come up on a really important time in our country's history. There are a number of older organizations, Third Act being one of them, CoGenerate being another, that are forming new partnerships with organizations that are all about young people, 18by Vote, um, Do Something, New Voters. They're actually really eager to have older adults in the room to share stories of like, what was it like for you the first time you voted? How do you hear stories of older immigrants who have come here, and that the right to vote, to be given that in this country, means something deep and profound?

[00:15:19] I think young people need to be reinspired on why to be involved in our country's democratic process. You can't do that if you just have a room of young people trying to get people registered to vote. You need the olders in the room too, that there is no expiration date on giving back and engaging in the community.

[00:15:35] Zannat Reza: Eunice mentioned the organization Third Act a couple of times when she talked about finding shared purpose. Third Act's mission is to mobilize people over the age of sixty to get involved in advocacy. That work involves engaging with younger generations as well. I got in touch with the Lead Advisor at Third Act, Akaya Windwood. She calls herself an author, a coach, and a rabble rouser. She has an impressive background in advocacy.

[00:16:01] In fact, she recently joined forces with Jane Fonda and Bernie Sanders to get the vote out for the Kamala Harris presidential campaign. Among her many accolades, she was an Ella Award recipient from the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights and was one of Conscious Company's thirty world changing women in 2018. We talked about what she learned about working with younger people and how to push for change together. But first, I wanted to hear more about her fascinating background that led her to this work.

[00:16:30] Akaya Windwood: I'm literally born an activist. My parents were both presidents of the NAACP way back in the sixties. I was on the first bus to integrate San Bernardino city schools here in California. And it didn't occur to me to think otherwise, right? And at the time there were only eight of us on that bus. So we were dropped off, two black kids per white school. I remember how lonesome I was because I'd come from a very active black community, and here I was in this white community that had no interest in any of us being there. And we persisted and life is different now. So I don't remember a time when I wasn't an activist, even though I would never have called myself such a thing. And I still don't really. Rabble rouser is a much better, better term for what I do.

[00:17:25] Zannat Reza: I love that. So maybe if you could tell me a little bit about Third Act, cause it's a organization that you've co founded and, you know, when I was looking at, uh, your YouTube clip with the Bioneers conference in 2023, the one part that really resonated with me was when you talked about we need to re engage in social activism. And this is for folks over the age of sixty. But the part that I loved was when you talked about re engaging through kindness, music, art, community, and healing. And I thought that is so beautiful and that really transcends generations.

[00:18:02] Akaya Windwood: It does. I mean, when I think about the soundtrack of my teenage years in, you know, the sixties and seventies, still it's very bright and so, you know, disco and Crosby, Stills, and Ashton Young and all the, you know, hopeful songs that we were listening to, that were in some, many ways, uh, you know, background to the, the times. This was when the anti war movement was going on and the women's movement and the American Indian movement and civil rights and the beginning of the LBGTQ queer movement. I mean, there were so many movements that were happening at that time and music was a huge part of it. And art was a big part of it.

[00:18:47] So that seems to have stayed somewhat steady, even as the movements have changed quite a bit over the years. How we go about organizing, how we go about our activism, the mechanisms by which that happens, have changed drastically, whereas, you know, we would put a poster on a, on a wall and hope that enough people saw it. And now it's online and in many venues and that's part of why Third Act actually came into being. Part of the reason that we have some of the values that we have around kindness and welcoming, celebration, well that's been really important to me my whole life.

[00:19:27] I believe deeply that if we're going to have successful social movements, they've got to include the part of us that is joyous and human and celebratory. Otherwise, it's kind of a drag. Why bother? I wish that our social movement celebrated more. That we could take a breath and go, wow, that happened. That is a key cultural component to Third Act. That we do witness and pause and celebrate and, you know, be grateful for the contributions that everybody's making.

[00:20:03] Zannat Reza: One of the things you talk about is working with other generations. And it's a matter of stepping beside those generations versus in front of generations to say, hey, we are the elders, we have all the answers. Maybe you could speak to some of that intergenerational work that is happening and needs to happen.

[00:20:24] Akaya Windwood: My favorite work right now. I love talking with the next generations because you all are thinking very differently than, than we are. For those of us who are over sixty, we were raised in a particular cultural timeframe. I like to joke that we were the first generation to ever go through, through puberty, and the very first generation to ever have children and, or get homes or any of that, and we're probably going to be the first generation to ever die, right? We kind of got taught that the world begins and ends with us, and we're the smart generation, and we're the big generation, and all the things. Well, it's not true. We are smart, we are a big generation, and there's a lot we don't know.

[00:21:10] I was talking with a young friend of mine several years ago, and I said, maybe it's time for us to step aside. And she said, no, it's not time for you to step aside, it's time for you to step beside us. So that we can count on you, we can lean on you, we can, you know, have access to your wisdom, but it's time for you to get out from in front of the room. And I said, you're right. That's absolutely right. So that's part of why I love these cross generation conversations, because I can get out from in front of the room and actually learn some things. It's so much fun.

[00:21:45] Sometimes I'm uncomfortable because I like to feel like I'm right, right? That I'm wise and I know a lot. Well, that's true. And it's also true that I can't quite figure out how to get my earphones working with my computer, and I know that the kids across the street who are in their thirties could handle that in like two seconds, right? So to be able to laugh at my, the limitations of my thinking, and then open my mind, and open my heart for new ways of thinking. That's been both a gift and a challenge.

[00:22:25] Zannat Reza: So picking up on that, you talk about the joy of working with people of different ages. What are some ways to foster that kind of collaboration?

[00:22:34] Akaya Windwood: First of all, we need to have some humility, right? It's on all sides, right? And, and the kind of, oh, okay, boomer, that's not gonna be helpful. Or if I'm, if I'm bringing my, oh, millennials are, you know, slackers. None of that. Setting that aside so that I can say, oh, here I am in conversation with this amazing person. What will we learn from one another? And to allow myself to get uncomfortable.

[00:23:02] Zannat Reza: When we're thinking about mobilizing people of different ages towards activism, what role does storytelling play?

[00:23:10] Akaya Windwood: I think it is about creating the, the circumstances by which we can hear each other's stories. I've had and hosted a number of conversations over the last several years, across generations, and they've been fascinating. I'm fortunate in that I'm in a role where I can do that, but we can do that in our families, right? To actually deliberately create space and time where we can listen to one another. And not correct one another and not say, that's the right way to think about things, but to just go, wow, I, I don't think about it that way. Here's how I think about it. And to interrupt any patterns of competition of who's got the righteous way to think about something or do something, and to step into more curiosity.

[00:23:57] Zannat Reza: We've heard this idea now from both Eunice and Akaya. We can redefine our world by changing the stories we tell. That's something I'm familiar with in my work. At SE Health, we launched an initiative with Covenant Health called Courage Action for Better Aging, where we invite current and future older adults to work together so they can age on their own terms. A key element is making sure people feel a sense of self worth and connection to their communities. Third Act has excelled at building that sense of purpose. So I wanted to get Akaya's perspective on how they've been so successful at mobilizing older adults.

[00:24:33] Akaya Windwood: I think what we did was tap into an unmet need that we didn't know. Because it shocked us, I have to say. What? How did this happen so quickly? And I want to lift up the staff right now because they've done an amazing job. I think more than anything we gave, we offered, an opportunity for people over sixty to either come back to activism or become part of an activist organization for the first time in their lives, some for some, right? Because we are a generation that cares. And I think because of generational issues, we didn't have ways to actually engage in social movements that are happening now.

[00:25:16] Um, and so we said, well, here's a platform. Let's all go do something amazing. And everybody, and people started going, yes. And people began to self organize in regions and professions and made working groups. We actually help the working groups organize themselves. That's a lot of what we do. So if we're going to, you know, march in the streets, let's dance. I think in many ways, a lot of folks are isolated because of age. And so this became a way for people who had been isolated to interrupt that and become part of things again.

[00:25:53] Zannat Reza: I love what you said in terms of, we're gonna march, might as well dance. I can totally picture that. Can you give some specific examples of success, and particularly around climate change?

[00:26:04] Akaya Windwood: We are in conversation with the four major banks around divesting from fossil fuel. And, you know, they're listening. People over sixty in this country own seventy percent of the wealth. That's a lot of imbalance. As a generation, we have a lot of resources. We also have time. If I'm the CEO of Citibank, for instance, and I, we've got a bunch of people over sixty with a whole lot of money saying, we want you to rethink your investment in fossil fuels. I'm going to pay a little more attention, I think, than perhaps I might to other folks.

[00:26:38] Zannat Reza: Do you think ageism plays a role in creating change? Because on the one hand, you're saying people are paying attention because seventy percent of the wealth is held by people over the age of sixty. You know, I was having conversations with a group of older adults around organizing for a social movement. And they said, well, gotta get younger people involved because no one's really listening to us because of our age.

[00:26:59] Akaya Windwood: That's definitely a piece without a doubt. But I'm also, I would argue that we're not listening very well either. We can get very judgmental. And when people get judgmental, other people tend to tune out. So, is ageism real? Absolutely. I think it's really about having the conversations that are necessary now, across generations, that will interrupt some of the ageism that we experience, but also we can be disparaging of the next generation. So, being able to be a good elder is important. And many, very many of us did not get good eldering.

[00:27:37] Zannat Reza: So, how do people become good elders?

[00:27:40] Akaya Windwood: Listening. Opening up our, our minds. Being willing to support. I think that's probably the biggest gift we as elders can offer, to say, what do you need from me? How can I help? You can count on me. I'm here. As opposed to let me, let me be out in front of everything. Let me still be the mouthpiece for everything. No, it's not time for that anymore. And so part of the challenge, I think, is for those of us who are over sixty, to stop being ego invested in our work or who we are. But to be more invested in our role as making sure the next generations have what they need in order to create a world that we're not going to be part of.

[00:28:26] Zannat Reza: At the end of every episode, we ask all of our guests the same question. If you could wave a magic wand and make one radical but realistic change to improve our society's well being, what would it be? We'll hear from Eunice first, and then Akaya.

[00:28:40] Eunice Lin Nichols: There are so many things I would wish, but okay, if I could do one, the broadest category is, I would say, I would want to make cogeneration the norm in society, our default position. We have spent so much time, for the sake of efficiency, pulling the generations apart. And if I could wave a wand, I would fast forward us to the point where we've put those pieces back together.

[00:29:05] Akaya Windwood: I love that question. I would take at least half of the military budget that is used to kill people and use those resources to help people live. In the US that's a huge sum of money. Imagine if we invested in our schools and we invested in the wellbeing of our older people. And we had education for everybody who wanted it for free. And healthcare were free and we had universal basic income. And these are all things that would absolutely be possible.

[00:29:39] Small thing, perhaps, but, no, it's not a small thing. If I could wave my, my wand, it would start there. And that would be year one. Year two would be having it again. Year three, we would slowly reprioritize our collective intelligence and commitment to one another toward creating the conditions for life. Both for humans and the rest of all life on the planet.

[00:30:08] Zannat Reza: A big thank you to Eunice Lin Nichols and Akaya Windwood for sharing why it's important for generations to work together and the ways in which they can create a better future.

[00:30:17] Thanks for joining us for this episode. To learn more and for transcripts, go to TheFutureAge.ca. Listen to new episodes by following us wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're liking our podcasts, leave a review on Apple or Spotify and be sure to share it with your friends, family, and colleagues. The Future Age is brought to you by SE Health, a not-for-profit social enterprise that provides the best care, inspires innovation, and impacts how people live and age at home.